tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6607046810747878780.post1985009331009200542..comments2023-12-01T10:52:30.149+00:00Comments on On New and Alternative Religions: An Interview with Caroline Jane TullyEthan Doyle Whitehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07698715233107060162noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6607046810747878780.post-7774241729268124452019-02-27T08:54:01.944+00:002019-02-27T08:54:01.944+00:00Wow! fascinating!Wow! fascinating!SOYLENTGREENhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00246896716914946759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6607046810747878780.post-12224967681810993492013-01-31T02:32:38.717+00:002013-01-31T02:32:38.717+00:00Oh, before anyone has an apoplectic fit, can I jus...Oh, before anyone has an apoplectic fit, can I just say that although I have mentioned a Druid in my post above, I'm not singling out any particular "types" of Pagan here... the example I was talking about was a Druid, the other example were Wiccans (I [or they] think). Paranoid hierarchy-jostling is evident in many types of Pagan and Magickal groups.Caroline Tullyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18295336008587199702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6607046810747878780.post-83519944749500298392013-01-31T02:26:53.590+00:002013-01-31T02:26:53.590+00:00It's true, the vitriol is not only confined to...It's true, the vitriol is not only confined to the internet. In fact, much (not all, but a lot) of my experience as a Pagan, when meeting other Pagans who I have never met before, is characterised by iciness, haughtiness, and paranoia on _their_ part. I used to get disappointed about this, a friend would say, "Oh, you must meet so-and-so, she's a Druid" or whatever, I'd meet so-and-so and she'd be wary, paranoid, and competitive - BOR-ING! Well, we can hardly have a sensible conversation when it's about competing about whatever it is we're apparently competing about. Only last year I met some Pagans at a festival that a very old associate assured me were really nice and whom I simply must meet. Well, I'd never met such icy, unfriendly sour-pusses in my life. In fact I hardly 'met' them as they made a point of scowling at and ignoring me. And why? Because, I can only assume, they were terribly concerned with their status vis-a-vis mine and everyone elses'. I don't think I'm imaginging that. I've had years of dealing with magical and Pagan groups in which prestige and hierarchy is important, although it is never admitted in polite circles, so I think I can detect it when I'm conftonted with it. That's what this - this hostility - is about, it's about hierarchical posturing. And the possession of knowledge, or what is thought to be secret knowledge, linked with in-group [and out-group] membership, or lack thereof. One must shun the [perceived] outsider. One simply must! Especially if they look like they might be competition... competition for what...? Fans, followers, prestige, leadership, increased self-esteem... shrug. Hierarchy and prestige, "power over", are characteristics that modern Pagan Witchcraft specifically pretends _do not_ petain to it. And I'm sure that in some [ideal] situations it doesn't. (And Witchcraft is just as magical as magic(k) groups, so don't bother saying "Oh, it's just those hierarchical ceremonial magic groups that are like that"). I'd say that in most cases a dominant individual or couple loves nothing more than being - and staying - the "boss" in a group... when what should be happening is that everyone should be being encouraged to develop and become amazing... to graduate out from under the "teachers". Anyway, as Anton La Vey says, if you pretend that you got into Witchcraft for any reason other than power, you're deluding yourself. But (let me draw breath...) just because Paganism can be annoying, that should not let you be put off from publishing projects or doing any other creative activity. Although the "scenes" can be frustrating, depressing, distracting and exhausting, the topic itself is fascinating and NOBODY OWNS IT or can forbid you from it!!!Caroline Tullyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18295336008587199702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6607046810747878780.post-15678710394727967502013-01-26T22:59:23.049+00:002013-01-26T22:59:23.049+00:00I find it unfortunate that such behaviour has caus...I find it unfortunate that such behaviour has caused yourself (or anyone else in the Pagan and esoteric communities), to self-censor or give up on productive endeavours that they might otherwise have undertaken. I hope that if, in future, you feel the desire to write and publish your thoughts, that you will not be hindered by these vitriolic "Counter-Revisionists" as Hutton has recently called them. Ethan Doyle Whitehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07698715233107060162noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6607046810747878780.post-37057013102706925002013-01-26T05:13:01.617+00:002013-01-26T05:13:01.617+00:00The vitriol is not confined to the Internet. My ex...The vitriol is not confined to the Internet. My experience is that it is far more personal and deeper than this, and has led to my decision to probably never publish again. nwloraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16927729321817286956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6607046810747878780.post-15470381400427058382013-01-17T23:31:57.016+00:002013-01-17T23:31:57.016+00:00For any interested readers, Hutton elaborates on t...For any interested readers, Hutton elaborates on these ideas in his latest review article, "Revisionism and Counter-Revisionism in Pagan History", published in the 13(2) issue of The Pomegranate: The International Journal of Pagan Studies (https://www.equinoxpub.com/journals/index.php/POM/article/view/16291). Ethan Doyle Whitehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07698715233107060162noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6607046810747878780.post-67227749287050846312013-01-14T22:41:02.610+00:002013-01-14T22:41:02.610+00:00Hi Yewtree, yes as Ethan said the hostility is mai...Hi Yewtree, yes as Ethan said the hostility is mainly on the internet. When I met Ronald Hutton in the UK in April 2012 (and I met both of you there too!!!) he also said that he thought that the vitriol was mainly in the internet. He also said that it was not particulary something that UK Pagans encountered much, and was mainly a phenomena of what I would call (not him, I'm calling it) the Wiccan/Pagan "diaspora". I know that many Pagans in Australia are not at all aware of it, probably because they either don't hang out on the internet much (what???) or they hang out in different places on the internet. The thing is, as you know, there are so many interesting debates within the broader "umbrella" of Paganism, but there shouldn't be this need to approach them with a poison-tipped rocket-propelled grenade.Caroline Tullyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18295336008587199702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6607046810747878780.post-5065154705171154732013-01-14T21:56:27.494+00:002013-01-14T21:56:27.494+00:00Thank you for your kind words, it's good to he...Thank you for your kind words, it's good to hear that people are enjoying my endeavours on this blog. <br /><br />I don't think that either Ms Tully or any other academic involved in Pagan Studies really believes that all non-academic Pagans take such an anti-intellectual and/or anti-academic stance. Clearly, a large percentage of non-academic Pagans are very interested in historical and archaeological scholarship into the pre-Christian past, as well as the work produced by Pagan Studies scholars such as myself. At the same time, we don't expect Pagans to take our findings for granted, and on the whole are happy to listen to well-argued, constructive criticism from the Pagan community. <br /><br />However, at the same time we cannot ignore the existence of a vocal minority of Pagans, active primarily on the internet, who are taking a very hostile approach to Pagan Studies. Not only have they criticised the research and publications of academics in this field, but they have stepped beyond this to make personal and borderline slanderous attacks on the characters of the scholars themselves. I personally believe that it is this latter aspect of their critique that has put Pagan Studies scholars on the defensive in recent years. Ethan Doyle Whitehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07698715233107060162noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6607046810747878780.post-35991060676633259622013-01-14T20:09:59.279+00:002013-01-14T20:09:59.279+00:00Great stuff, thanks for doing another great interv...Great stuff, thanks for doing another great interview.<br /><br />Not all non-academic Pagans are opposed to proper historical and anthropological perspectives - as witness the popularity of Pagans for Archaeology, a group for Pagans who support archaeological investigation of sites & remains; and also the number of Pagan practitioners (in the UK at least) who respect and admire Ronald Hutton.Yewtreehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02028699564003381058noreply@blogger.com